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NYC passes minimum pay wage for Uber and Lyft drivers

Discussion in 'News' started by Pusher, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. BillC


    Suburb of Mpls
    Thanks for your answer. I really didn't know. I've only taken a cab a few times in my life, and those were all for business trips almost 20 years ago where it made more sense than renting a car due to short distance or due to being in NYC.
  2. Nats121


    Arlington VA
    If it happens in the rest of the US, uber's valuation will crash thru the floor.
    Pusher and TwoFiddyMile like this.
  3. Pusher


    Mad MedicMad Medic said on the Chicago thread

    The official set of regulations that govern the passage of the bill.

    Contains per trip (not hourly) pay formula of miles and time, just like always BUT still a per trip fare that just happens to use a 58% utilization factor in the compensation BECAUSE the data showed on average Uber drivers only compensated while with pax and only 58% of their online time is with a fare while 42% of their time is spent idle and not earning.

    Data used 30 hours or more per week as the full time hours

    Don't know why such negativity .
    1st city in the US to secure some consistent livable earnings from ride share.

    The $17.22 net is exactly the identical hourly as the Taxi drivers.

    The $26.51 hourly gross is the income FLOOR yet many here see this as some type of employee status or income ceiling pay.

    They have it in writing that their rates can never decrease simply because ride share company deems a new lower rate next year or next week. Uber/Lyft can no longer just send out a notification stating rates were changed.

    Didn't we just get an unannounced rate change in Chicago recently???

    We did. And some are doing better while others doing worse. Many, had to adapt to a new way navigating with different fare formula and change up their style so as not to earn less.

    The data shows that this was well researched and provides sound rational, factual benchmarks.

    When you digest the data, you have more knowledge to base your opinion on.

    Some here are hollering about not wanting to be an employee. The data accurately reflects that IF Uber were to classify their almost 80 thousand drivers as employees, that Uber would be the largest employer in the State of New York.

    The data points out that NY drIvers have 750 million dollars of inventory. The 750 million reflects the cost of theit cars but as the data also states "the cost before factoring in any financing of their vehicles"

    I would encourage everyone to read the actual TLC bill attached before blindly presuming it as either a great or horrible thing.

    Please, read the actual document and then you could certainly then have an informed overview and opinion.

    By reading, you'll see the actual per trip formula with the 58% utilization factor based upon the compiled research that revealed on average, Uber drivers 58% with paid fare and 42% without any compensation.

    This research will also show you the formula for deadhead miles, which surprisingly is the basic concept taxis implemented years ago, essentially , meter and a half

    The data also points out why the $15 per hour became $17.22 per hour for ride share drivers to be equivalent to traditional work force min wage of $15.

    You'll see, simply by reading the facts, that 7.85% ($1.32 per hour) is the cost each independent contractor must set aside to pay the employer portion of taxes. Otherwise , unlike traditional jobs in which the employer pays 50%, as self employed, the self employed pay approx 15% (we know that right?)

    Then, since ICs do not receive any paid time off (PTO) from an employer, six percent (0.90per hr.) was added to take into full account that someone working a job at $15 per hour averages an additional VALUE of PTO of 90 cents per hour that never personally cost the employee that amount out of their own pocket.

    So, if a traditional full time job had their employees work 40 hours a week every week for the entire year without any paid days off, you'd use 2080 hours for FLSA purposes.

    Now, presume an employee, let's say averages two weeks (80 hrs) worth of paid time off for combination of sick days, holidays and vacation days throughout the year.

    In this case, a $15 hr employee would have 80 fully paid hours of time off. Eighty would equate to $1,200.00 of pay received for hours never worked.

    In other words, they don't get that $1,200 deducted from their pay because they get paid for 2080 hours even though they work only 2,000 hours annualy.

    A ride share driver doesn't drive, doesn't get paid for the day. So, very nice that the TLC recognized that and factored it in their calculations.

    So if your a driver that Never takes a shift off, great! You'd be guaranteed more than 30 k take home pay, after expenses.

    Other full time jobs, a $15 hour employee getting paid as if working all 2080 hours. Wheras a ride share driver would lose money for every hour not worked.

    It's a pretty good calculation the TLC thought of. Now of course if a driver blows through their pay each and every week, they'd make zero dollars for that week they were home sick .

    So, that's where self employed persons simply have to recognize the responsibility to set aside a little money each and every week lies with themselves because being self employed requires that discipline

    That calculation the TLC factored into the per trip fare formula comes out to a couple thousand dollars in the driver's pocket (2080hrs. X 0.90) that otherwise would have been a reduction of Driver income had a driver take 80 hours off for the year to be there for the family, take a sick day or go on vacation. Therefore, that couple thousand could be over a $4,000.00 swing of actual driver spend able money if driver had to miss 80 hours. Because not only would they not earn by not driving, they'd lose by not driving. This way, driver doesn't lose and if never a day off, actually gains.

    Their is so much valuable information contained within the TLC rules document attached to this post. Inside, you'll also learn what percentage of drivers are fulltime/part time, which vehicle is used most (not Prius), what percentage of drivers on medicaid and/or food stamps, taxi rates, fare reduction prevention, and so much more, like how now Uber must be 100% transparent with fare breakdowns, showing amt for tolls, expenses, taxes, etc. They now must show what amount counts as an income, not an expense.

    For example, the data compiled that the true cost of Driver expenses averages $400 per week.

    Hope everyone takes the time to study the information contained within the rules guidelines.

    Also- if you wish to digest as pay per mile instead of pay per hour, you'll discover it is a much better deal than ANY market region Uber/Lyft operates in. And you'll discover that Via didn't have to change what so ever because NY Via drivers already earn more than what the new rules require. So, if Via can do it, so can Uber/Lyft/Juno.

    Bonus material - The TLC mandates more driver pay for "shared rides". They recognized that drivers performing rides such as pool were getting shafted big time. Glad to see improvement in that area.

    Is the tip included in that hourly guaranteed rate?
    Don't think so because doesn't matter if you give 1 ride a month or 3 rides per hour. The fare formula is the same 100% of the time for 100% of drivers.

    It's not very complicated. They're simply using formula of $$ per mile, $$ Per minute and then factor in a 58% utilization factor. If WAV it's a utilization factor of 70%, based upon Uber driver car with pax 58% of time but WAV driver has pax 70% of the time

  4. Mad Medic

    Mad Medic

    Hey Pusher. Thanks for including the link I put on the Chicago thread of the complete TLC rules governing the NY bill passage and getting that link to this thread.

    Appears there's some confusion among some drivers that may have heard the words "min wage" and associate it as becoming employees and others believing they will earn less than normal and only earn $26.51 hourly gross.

    Reading the actual document should at minimum, provide accurate information, not speculation , of what actually occured, why and how it will be implemented.

    Even a few NY drivers appear to have an inaccurate assumption of the proposal passage and what it means for a variety of different scenarios.

    So much so that the TLC released a very clear and simple message on their social media platforms that fully explains it's not an employee status and a true min wage in the sense of people speculating a number of things, including the possibility of drivers trying to game it by sitting home 8 hours with app on and making $26.51 an hour for being very selective or only pinged for 2 rides in 8 hours yet earning same as someone not gaming it.

    The TLC has posted in the simplest possible way that it is not a true minimum wage BUT a per trip better formula that increases the amount earned on any/all trips. Their extensive data does adequately contain enough variable factors that drivers would at least earn a minimum amt per hour for honest hours worked. They fully acknowledge that the driver which only accepts 1 or 2 rides over the course of an 8 hour day will not earn 8 hours of min $26.51 per hour for 8 hours. Now, if sitting ap on in the pit for 6 hours, maybe they'll have the option to accept a ping that not necessarily is to an arrivals terminal, thus providing honest opportunity to earn a min amt per hour, IF driver isn't cherry picking each ride for profit ability.

    There's a copy of today's TLC statement posted in the New York thread titled "fooled by tlc" in which a driver posted it to imply they were fooled and not guaranteed a min wage.

    My opinion, it's a good thing. There will always be drivers that cherry pick each and every ride, drivers that already have their own personal strategy that earns them more than what is the new minimums BUT the overwhelming majority of drivers actually want to be actively driving pax more and sitting less.

    At least for them, they'll earn better for an honest day of hard work AND even the cherry picker will also benefit more on each accepted ride, thanks to a much better per trip formula and thanks to deadhead compensation.

    Overall, it's a GREAT 1st step for the ride share industry. Glad they were able to improve in a way that benefits all of their drivers in that market.
    Pusher and Mista T like this.
  5. TwoFiddyMile


    Raising the rates ain't rocket science.
    Nu1, Lawlet91, Pusher and 1 other person like this.
  6. Wardell Curry

    Wardell Curry

    Not to be the pessismist of the group, but you will still have drivers who just bought their new 2018 Camry xse struggling to pay all the additional expenses NYC drivers face. And some of them still don't know they have to put aside money for taxes thinking sales tax covers it. What this city needed was a minimum rate at least equal to the yellow meter rate, but all we got is a loosely interpreted minimum hourly rate based on a formula that tries to predict how much one would make by doing a certain number of trips each hour(with time and distance). A rate most veterans drivers were already above. All's well that ends well I guess. Pass those extra peanuts over here. Smh.
    driverdoug likes this.
  7. You don't need employees to drive cars that drive themselves. Tick..........tock.............
  8. uberdriverfornow


    if you look more closely at the article you will see uber is trying to push their uberpool crap into the agenda for no reason, trying to make congestion somehow an issue

    uberpoop has nothing to do with the minimum fare pay
  9. I just read most of that PDF.... WOW!!

    Lots of new protections for taxi drivers, too.

    Would love to see something like this sweep through my city. It would put a quick stop to underpayment of drivers and overhiring by U/L.

    "Estimated that this will result in a raise for over 77,000 drivers in NYC". How many are there total, 80,000?
    Pusher likes this.
  10. Pusher


    Do you honestly believe that Uber can afford to field the numbers of cars needed to cover just one market alone? And then maintain them after purchase?

    On set routes they make a little sense, but in the free style thrown all over creation way this works it does not.

    Let’s just look at two markets alone , New York and Chicago .. New York roughly 80,000 cars - Chicago roughly 67,000 cars X let’s low ball it purchase price of $32,000. Now that car has a set lifespan of 5-10 yrs depending on overall mileage per year driven, and we all know that goes through the roof doing this. Now factor in the requirement of low emission and or electric with that still being a long term question of true lifespan. Diesel will get you the mileage longer term, but is not clean so the city’s will not allow it.

    Add in cost to maintain those vehicles and clean them. Because I am so sure that pax will respect them more than they do someone else’s personal car after all. Now all that cost and overhead falls back on Uber not the contractor as it does now...
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    Nu1 likes this.
  11. Which is most likely why they're probably already developing pitches for private entities to invest in their own sdcs to put on the Uber network under Uber control with no doubt a daily monthly or per ride cleaning fee attached. Given enough money on the part of the indo idials involves some may actually go for it initially saving Uber the initial cost of investment. They might even try a franchise model of some type. They will no doubt squeeze the profits out of those investors.
    Nats121 likes this.
  12. Pusher


    They will for sure try something along those lines, and some will fall for it, but Uber’s PR is putrid and private investors are not really keen on forming over capital to them. Just look recently how some very big houses rejected them.
  13. Frankyfiggs


    Driverless cars will be used as personal on demand toilets and convenient places to shoot up/do blow here in nyc.

    The new rates change it from going further faster for 30+/hr to just being on the clock for 30/hr.

    Its definitely been calculated with vision zero and modifying driver behavior to favor slower speeds/decent bucks for the poor morons who make their money in traffic. Once pax figure this out they will want drivers to rush.

    Altogether a decent change. Wont ditch pax who want to make stops at the store anymore, and at a respectable rate if they want me to idle on the clock no more issues from me.

    The out of town rates are going to make some of us do quite well, assuming pax dont start taking busses again when they see the new prices
    Nu1 likes this.
  14. Codyboy1


    And many will. I drive a taxi for 15, and then the last five and a half for uber. The lyft and uber x model created new customers. Higher rates will make then go back to public trans, and family members
  15. Another Uber Driver

    Another Uber Driver Moderator

    See avatar
    You will have some who will do that here, but the majority will not. Convenience is still what rules the transportation choices of most people here, which is why the cabs have managed to survive, here. If they want to keep the bus riders, they can use U-Pool, although the payout to the drivers on those would have to increase, as well.

    I have suggested, half seriously and half tongue-in-cheek, that Uber could re-instate all drivers de-activated for low ratings but restrict them to U-Pool. The cheap U-Pool users and bad drivers deserve each other. Uber could let other drivers opt in or out. If a poorly rated driver does well on U-Pool, he can be "promoted" to another level. The bus riders are used to rude and poor drivers and beat up vehicles, anyhow.
  16. TwoFiddyMile


    Nobody will poop in or shoot up in a SDC for very long. The security cameras will be instant checkmate for police agencies.
  17. Its not an hourly rate like you think. If I work 3pm to 4pm and get no pings I don't get the $17.22. When I do get a ping the per mile and per time rate goes up, due to a number of different factors. If you get no pings you get no money.
    Nu1 likes this.
  18. Another Uber Driver

    Another Uber Driver Moderator

    See avatar
    All that it appears to be is that the TLC is going to regulate TNC rates. It is going to use a formula similar to what it, and other regulatory agencies nationwide, use to determine cab rates. Many of these agencies will use a formula that will render a profit to the driver comparable to the pay rates of mid-level government clerical employees.
    TwoFiddyMile and Kris150303 like this.
  19. Uberboyz


    New York
    17.22 will bring you less than $15 an hour after taxes for sure, you will end up getting $13.5
  20. njn


    "This would result in estimated typical gross hourly earnings before expenses of at least $26.51 per hour."

    Are they calculating taxes as expenses? Surely expenses are less than $9.29/hr.

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