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Lies, Damned Lies, and Donald Trump

Discussion in 'Other' started by Maven, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. Spotscat

    Spotscat Well-Known Member

    Location:
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    It seems that some of y'all have either forgotten history, or else never learned it in school.

    Trump is the worst President we ever had? Sit down for a minute and lemme tell ya' about the past...

    One of the brightest and most charismatic Presidents we ever had was brutally murdered in Texas one fall afternoon. Over the next five years, we had --

    A massive lie told to the American people and Congress about an alleged incident where a foreign country fired upon a US Navy ship, thereby providing the President with the pretext he needed to escalate a war in SE Asia - a war the murdered President was trying to uninvolve the United States in. This war ended up costing us 58,000+ American lives.

    Riots in the streets of Los Angeles (Watts), and Detroit, Michigan causing millions of dollars of property damage.

    Two of the best and brightest leaders this country ever produced assassinated.

    Riots in the streets of Chicago during the Democratic National Convention.

    The country in such a turmoil that the President declared he would not run for reelection.

    And just when we thought there couldn't be anything worse than LBJ...

    Here comes Richard Nixon.
     
  2. TheFixer1

    TheFixer1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Newsflash, Socialism is DEAD. And how exactly is Donald Trump the worst President, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and unbound knowledge. You also know nothing about Nixon, only what the Socialists are feeding you.

    Newsflash, Socialism is DEAD.
     
  3. Oscar Levant

    Oscar Levant Well-Known Member

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    Newsflash, Totalitarianism is DEAD.

    Republicans love to red bait, but it's a strawman argument. No one is arguing for totalitarianism, because that
    is what you are saying is dead. Yes, totalitarianism is dead, and no one wants it, I don't want it, none of my liberal friends want it, nor does Bernie Sanders et al., want that.

    And I'm actually not arguing for socialism at all, because socialism, by definition,
    is a country where the state owns all of the means of production and distribution.

    With Bernie Sanders, the term has evolved to mean a "state sponsored system". There is a difference between "takeover" and "sponsor" and the distinction is critical. Medicare-for-all is a state sponsored system, and it works very well. The VA is a government run hospital, and doesn't work that well. It works "okay" but not 'great'. I"m not advocating that, nor is Bernie Sanders. Thing is, republicans cannot grasp the distinction, and the distinction is immensely important.

    Another thing, Bernie Sanders, nor I, not in any way shape or form, are arguing doing away with capitalism ( we do advocate restrictions on unfettered corporatism, though, but that's something for another thread ).

    The problem with arguing for a state sponsored system with republicans, because they immediately kneejerk all the way to the right, and thus proclaim democrats are goosestepping comrads-in-arms to the Soviet National Anthem. Please resist doing this, for it's, well, let's just say it's mediocrity, and I really don't like debating mediocrity

    Surely you can do better, eh? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, 'cause I'm such a nice guy :)

    Firstly, let's take a look at this:

    There are no countries that have a 100% free market health care system that provide affordable health care for ALL of it's citizens. ( if you can name one, please do, I can't seem to find it ).

    In fact, I googled the search string: "are there any countries with free market health care systems that provide affordable health care for all of its citizens?" and nothing came up to answer that question, no countries were shown in the search.

    On the other hand, Most of the western developed nations do have universal health care which do provide health care for all of its citizens.

    Think about this for a moment or two. What can we learn from it? Hey, maybe, just maybe, it could work in America? Why not? 48 nations have it, and it works fine in most of them. Now then, don't go pointing to some dwindling totalitarian country run by corrupt dictators, NO ONE on the left is advocating such things. If you do it, you are being disingenuous in the extreme.

    What does Forbes, a conservative magazine, say about it? Here are 10 countries with state sponsored health care system, whose societies are actually freer than Americas.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapo...lth-care-are-economically-freer-than-the-u-s/

    See, no one is trying to enslave you, so you really should quit making that argument, it's stupid, to be honest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  4. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
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    Interesting. 2 politically opposed guys, making the same mistake, almost in mirror image. Totalitarianism is alive and well, just like socialism. No widespread political philosophy ever dies completely. I'm sure that you've heard of Neo-Nazis and fellow travelers. Behind the racism has always been a Totalitarian political philosophy. Like socialism, it's even stronger in Europe then the USA, but it's growing here in the age of Trump.
    True, "Republicans love to red bait" and "it's a strawman argument", but I fail to see how that relates to totalitarianism in any way. There's another political spectrum. The extremes are totalitarianism and communism. Neither mixes well with democracy.
    Nope. That's communism. Socialism is where the state owns SOME, but not "all of the means of production and distribution."
    You probably know that Bernie is a self-declared socialist. I happen to agree with some, but not all of Bernie's positions. The hilarious political reality is that publicly, so does Donald Trump. Unfortunately, what Trump says is often diametrically opposed to what Trump does. Two examples are health care and tax reform, actually a tax cut for the rich and corporations, that will hurt many of the people who voted for Trump.

    It's true that superior health care for far lower cost-per-capita is available in many other countries. Matching their success would be detrimental to many powerful interests in the USA and is therefore unlikely to happen anytime soon. As for the VA, it gives excellent care. The problem has long been getting those who need care and qualify for care to the caregivers.
     
  5. TheFixer1

    TheFixer1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Socialism is DEAD.
     

  6. Oscar Levant

    Oscar Levant Well-Known Member

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    You can file that in the wishful thinking department.

    Sorry, I was in my 20s during Nixon, and remember him well. His burglary pales compared to Trump's complete incompetence and crimes make the burgulary look like a misdemeanor. At least Nixon gave us his taxes.
     
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  7. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

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    Richard Nixon, 37th President of the United States, will always be remembered for Watergate and being the only American President (yet) to resign in disgrace. However, there is another side of his story, that of an amazing politician who worked for the improvement of all Americans, not just his base.

    In his 1972 landslide victory, Nixon won 49 out of 50 states. Nixon excelled in foreign policy, ended the Vietnam war, opened up China after decades of isolation as a counter-balance to the USSR, while improving relations with the USSR. His administration undertook a number of important domestic policy reforms in welfare policy, civil rights, law enforcement, the environment, and other areas. If not for the character flaws that precipitated the Watergate coverup, Nixon might be rated among America's greatest Presidents.

    People never compare Nixon's political skills, motivations, or accomplishment to Trump; only his flaws and parallels to a possible political downfall.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  8. Spotscat

    Spotscat Well-Known Member

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    I apologize, I should have left out the snarky comment about Richard Nixon.

    The President I was referring to wasn't Nixon, it was his predecessor, this guy...

    1024px-Lyndon_B._Johnson_taking_the_oath_of_office,_November_1963.jpg

    This is who gave us the war in Vietnam, riots in the streets, and a whole lot more. Remember Billy Baker & Billy Sol Estes and how those scandals just sort of went away in the aftermath of Dallas? Ever read about the Texas Senate election of 1948 and how he became known as "Landslide Lyndon"? How the term "credibility gap" came into widespread usage during his Administration?

    Say what you will about Trump, this is the only President in American history who has been alleged to have had a role in the assassination of his predecessor.
     
  9. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

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    Lyndon Banes Johnson (LBJ), 36th President of the United States, whose downfall was the Vietnam War, which he did not start, but inherited from his predecessors. He declined to run for a second term, which he later regretted and many believe he would have won. As the primary beneficiary of Kennedy's assassination, he was the most logical candidate for conspiracy theories, but cleared by the Warren Report, which was itself immediately attacked.

    Johnson was the best politician to become President since FDR, having previously served as both VP and a very effective Senate Majority/Minority Leader for many years. He used those skills to enact an ambitious agenda called the "Great Society", the basis of much of today's social safety net. Major legislative accomplishments included the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, Head Start, and Medicare, which gave Millions of elderly people the means for proper medical care. His administration passed more than sixty education bills, initiated a wide-scale fight against poverty, saw federal support of the arts and humanities, championed urban renewal, environmental beautification and conservation, enabled development of depressed regions and pushed for control and prevention of crime and delinquency. Johnson appointed the first African American cabinet member who later became U.S. Supreme Court Justice, Thurgood Marshall. Apollo 8's first manned flight to the Moon.

    Despite all these accomplishments, some say Johnson was the worst American President in large part because of the Vietnam War and other weaknesses in Foreign Policy. In addition, people criticize that Johnson implemented too much, too fast, and set unrealistic goals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 3:22 AM
  10. Grahamcracker

    Grahamcracker Moderator Moderator

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    That's a lot of titles for one group
     
  11. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

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    Glad that you woke up and noticed a post from June 28th, 3 and a half months ago. You may still be sleepy, since from the context, which was absent from the quote, it may be discerned that I was talking about several different groups, occasionally mentioned as part of the same conspiracy theories.
     
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  12. Grahamcracker

    Grahamcracker Moderator Moderator

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    Yeah, np. I might have missed a few things while I was in the field in VA for a for a month and on a ship with very spotty cell phone service for 27 more days. Yeah, I might have missed a few posts;)
     
  13. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

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    No WiFi for sailors? :( Lucky you're in VA or tour might be 3-12 months. Are you reserve or regular? Must be surface. Subs usually longer.
     
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  14. Grahamcracker

    Grahamcracker Moderator Moderator

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    Actually I am Active Army. My unit was activated to recover a blackhawk that went down about 2 months ago.

    https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/policy/defense/348852-army-declares-all-five-crew-members-in-hawaii-black-hawk-crash-are-dead?amp#ampshare=http://thehill.com/policy/defense/348852-army-declares-all-five-crew-members-in-hawaii-black-hawk-crash-are-dead

    20171012_103609.jpg At the time, this was secret information but was declassified with the conclusion of the investigation. I cannot/Will not show certain pictures though due to it's sensitive nature.

    My MOS is 92M so with a small amount of investigation, you will know why we were needed.

    The first vessel we sailed out on, the anchor bent. So we had to return to port and wait for a 2nd vessel. Meanwhile, we had to remove all that equipment from one vessel to another. It was quite the process.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 2:26 PM
  15. Maven

    Maven Well-Known Member

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    I can understand how 92M was required for this mission. One stupid question though. If the crash was near Hawaii then why leave from VA instead of CA?
     
  16. Grahamcracker

    Grahamcracker Moderator Moderator

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    Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I am stationed at Ft. Shafter, HI. While I was in VA for field training that lasts about a month Long, I received notice that a HC-60 went down and that when I return, I will be on that mission to recover the remains.
     
  17. TheFixer1

    TheFixer1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
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    The best US President ever.





     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 5:06 PM
  18. Oscar Levant

    Oscar Levant Well-Known Member

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    There's absolutely no evidence that LBJ was behind the JFK assassination. I'm not one to believe a convicted swindler ( Billy Sol Estes ) and that's really all we have on that. To call that "evidence" is absurd. It's far more logical that it was the MOB who did it, for JFK's bother, Robert, who was AG, was going after the mob in a big way, and they deeply resented it, given that the Kennedy's father made big dough bootlegging liquor, and working with the mob. they viewed the mob helped the Kennedys get rich. Their logic to stop Robert K was "shoot the horse, and the tail will be no more". I think there is more evidence that the mob did it more than any of the other conspiracy theories.

    LBJ's viet nam policy was miguided. He was on the verge of ending the war, but while his administration was negotiating for an end to the war, Nixon's people dispatched a secret messenger to the viets that to hold off ending the war, because if he is elected, he will give them a better deal, and they did. What Nixon DID NOT WANT was Democrats ending the war, that would have insured he would not have been elected. So, soldiers had to continue die, to a remarkable number of thousands, so that Nixon could get elected.

    Another thing, it was LBJ who got the civil rights bill passed, the most significant achievement in the 60s, and he knew, that by doing that, he would lose all the dixiecrats in the south. And that is what happened, they moved over to the republican party after LBJ signed the civil rights act. LBJ sacrificed a future presidency by signing he bill.

    so, as for the verdict on LBJ, it's a mixed bag. He was wrong to take the advice of his generals and accelerate the war. But, you must understand, during those years, there was a HUGE fear of communism spreading, much much much more so than today, and that was an understandable error. There's an old saying, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy for us today, looking back 50 years, and say how stupid they were to do that, but it wasn't that clear cut, back then, given the climate. Thing is, the hippies and radical lefties ( like me ) we hated the war, on general principle, but I would say most of America, at the time, were backing the war, they believed stopping the spread of communism was a noble goal .
     
  19. TheFixer1

    TheFixer1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
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    Bye bye Obamacare/SocialistCare
     
  20. Oscar Levant

    Oscar Levant Well-Known Member

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    Since Obama, the people coming from Mexico to the US is less than the people leaving the US to Mexico due to NAFTA.

    There are no countries that have a free market health care system that provide accessible health care to all of its citizens at an affordable price. there are over 50 that do, and the average per capita cost for care in those countries is about half of what it cost in the USA.

    I have surveyed over 50 men and women from France, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, & Norway and asked them this question:

    'Would you trade your country's health care system for America's health care system?"

    Their replies, thus far, has been unequivocal, one big resounding, adamant:

    NO ! Not just no, but HELL NO !

    None of the arguments by republicans against universal heath care are born out by the facts and evidence.

    Simply put, they are wrong on every point.

    Also, medicare - for - all doesn't have to squash private health care, it can be an "option" . If you dont want, you don't have to have it.
     

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