gun recommendations.....

Sydney Uber

Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the point. Legal gun owners in cities also aren't the overwhelming source of violent crime including crimes committed with firearms. Regardless, individual firearm ownership, including the natural right to proportional self defense, is protected by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution. Civil rights protections for self defense are considerably less in Australia than in the United States and rely on common/case law rather than being constitutionally protected. I doubt most Americans would prefer to switch to the Australian model given the differences in our population demographics. I'd prefer to retain the option to keep my pistol and decide whether to carry it while I drive. Your government doesn't allow you that choice.

Its not that our Government doesn't allow the choice - the majority of Australians voted for the Liberal Party here (right wing similar to Republican Party) who brought in gun buy back laws and tougher ownership laws after the Port Arthur Massacre. 35 dead, 23 wounded in 1996.

That occurred a few years after the Strathfield Massacre in 1991 - a Cabbie went loco at a shopping centre close to my place, a loner who I learnt later had gone to my old school - his AK47 killed 7 and injured many more.

So a couple of terrible incidents galvanised lawmakers into action, They didn't want to follow the US path of easily accessible automatic weapons and the horror they can wreak.

Those who want to own and use guns lawfully go through a very involved process which takes many weeks before the gun is delivered.

The result is approaching what FauxKnight advocates. A better understanding of guns facilitated by by gun clubs that also provide the required secure storage of handguns of members away from urban domestic addresses.

Being able to buy guns over the counter with unlimited ammo would be the first thing to change. It cant happen here unless you hold the highest security clearance.

People simply cant carry a handgun without being a Cop or Accredited Security Personnel. If you get caught with one its a criminal offence and you go to jail.

Its kept a lid on the crazy shootings we hear happening over in the US
 

Brady

Well-Known Member
So a couple of terrible incidents galvanised lawmakers into action, They didn't want to follow the US path of easily accessible automatic weapons and the horror they can wreak.

The result is approaching what FauxKnight advocates. A better understanding of guns facilitated by by gun clubs that also provide the required secure storage of handguns of members away from urban domestic addresses.

It's actually very difficult to get an automatic weapon in the United States. I'm not aware of any mass shootings that involved automatic weapons outside of a military context.

Secure storage of handguns away from domestic addresses would make them pointless for self defense. That's the premise of this thread.
 

Uber Cody

New Member
Thanks for this information Brady, I am also in Michigan! Just recently got my CPL. I carry a Rueger sr9c love it.
As my day job, I'm the executive director of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners, the largest state based gun group in the United States. I carry consistently.

One premise with what you ask is wrong. If you draw a gun and shoot, you "shoot to stop the threat". You never shoot to wound or shoot to scare. You shoot at the center of exposed mass -usually a triangle formed from the shoulders down to the navel. And you only shoot when justified under the laws of your state which typically mean when you or someone else is in immediate danger of death, serious bodily injury and/or rape. Some states without Stand Your Ground laws also require you to flee if possible. Take a pistol safety training class and get your concealed weapons license. This will be explained to you in the class along with the laws of your state. The arm is a terrible target. It moves rapidly and is hard to hit. It also won't stop someone crazed on drugs even if you do hit it. In 95% of defensive uses of a firearm, the gun is never fired anyway. The simple presence of the gun and the "Stop or I'll shoot!" command is enough to end the threat.

As for a gun, the recommendation is that you get the biggest caliber you will carry consistently. For many men, that's a 9mm semi-auto or a .38 revolver. Revolvers carry less rounds but have the benefit in that unlike semi-autos they rarely ever jam and are more fool-proof. I carry a Ruger LCR .38/.357 in a pocket holster. Avoid ankle carry. It's hard to get to. Look for a pistol designed for concealed carry. They typically will have an internal hammer instead of an external one and internal safety mechanisms rather than a slide button on the outside. Regardless of what you carry, get training first. A typical NRA Personal Protection Class will cost $100-$200 depending on the instructor and length of the class.

Note that for others reading this: You carry a pistol for self defense outside the home. Preferably, you use a shotgun with the shortest legal barrel for self defense at home.
 

Sydney Uber

Well-Known Member
It's actually very difficult to get an automatic weapon in the United States. I'm not aware of any mass shootings that involved automatic weapons outside of a military context.

Secure storage of handguns away from domestic addresses would make them pointless for self defense. That's the premise of this thread.

Sorry, I may have gone off topic or perhaps express a contrary view - dont shoot me now! :p

Its the accessibility of guns which allows their misuse and the sad deaths that may not have occurred if a gun wasn't in reach of an angered or emotional person.

The overall ownership statistic where in OZ its 15 guns per 100 as opposed to 88 in the USA has a lot to do with folk here in Australia being much less likely to be shot is the crux of the firearm issue.

Please tell me that Vegas, Miami, New York and California dont allow open carry. Places I'd like to visit but not wish to be looking over my shoulder for some unhinged gun owner deciding to go out with a bang.
 

Optimus Uber

Well-Known Member
I carry a S&W Model 60 in .357 Magnum. 5-shot, 2-1/4" revolver. Should be 100% legal in California. Very reliable, packs a huge punch and is very concealable and safe and simple to use. I would also recommend never shooting to wound. Always shoot to kill. This is because self defense generally requires a fear of your life or great personal injury. For this reason, people who fire warning shots go to prison because the prosecutors claim if they had sufficient fear, they would shoot to kill because that is their only option.
Good Point, Shoot to Kill. Leave no witnesses, stay out of jail.
 

MiamiFlyer

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I may have gone off topic or perhaps express a contrary view - dont shoot me now! :p

Its the accessibility of guns which allows their misuse and the sad deaths that may not have occurred if a gun wasn't in reach of an angered or emotional person.

The overall ownership statistic where in OZ its 15 guns per 100 as opposed to 88 in the USA has a lot to do with folk here in Australia being much less likely to be shot is the crux of the firearm issue.

Please tell me that Vegas, Miami, New York and California dont allow open carry. Places I'd like to visit but not wish to be looking over my shoulder for some unhinged gun owner deciding to go out with a bang.

New York does not permit open carry and it is difficult to get a concealed permit, near impossible in NYC which has its own concealed carry rules.
Florida (Miami) does not allow open carry, but it is relatively easy to get a concealed permit.
California is pretty strict on guns, no open carry and concealed permits are limited. There is some recent case law that should allow for more concealed permits to pass through.
Nevada (Vegas) does allow open carry, and concealed permits are relatively easy to obtain. It would still be rare to see someone open carry outside of a shooting range.
 

troubleinrivercity

Well-Known Member
It's actually very difficult to get an automatic weapon in the United States. I'm not aware of any mass shootings that involved automatic weapons outside of a military context.

Secure storage of handguns away from domestic addresses would make them pointless for self defense. That's the premise of this thread.

Any safe storage of firearms makes them pointless for self-defense. Domestic guns (secured or not) take far, far more innocent lives than they save. Advocates of gun ownership have no response to this and don’t care. Just going to have to ramp up use of the term “gun nut” and see if we can’t shame the gun proliferators into either toning down the habit or moving to the country. There are a billion guns in this country because the manufacturers decided to make a billion guns and give them to people. The “responsible gun owners”/“law-abiding citizen” thing only stands up if gun access is infinitely scarcer, which the NRA will not allow. It has an ideological need to put a handgun in the hand of every citizen, even black ones.
 

MiamiFlyer

Well-Known Member
Any safe storage of firearms makes them pointless for self-defense. Domestic guns (secured or not) take far, far more innocent lives than they save. Advocates of gun ownership have no response to this and don’t care. Just going to have to ramp up use of the term “gun nut” and see if we can’t shame the gun proliferators into either toning down the habit or moving to the country. There are a billion guns in this country because the manufacturers decided to make a billion guns and give them to people. The “responsible gun owners”/“law-abiding citizen” thing only stands up if gun access is infinitely scarcer, which the NRA will not allow. It has an ideological need to put a handgun in the hand of every citizen, even black ones.

There are no shortage of holsters on the market that allow for a quick release for those trained to use the holster, but would make it more difficult for unknowing people (especially children) to access the firearm if they found it.
This guy attempt to take the officers gun after the officer is unable to defend herself. However, he can't get it out of the holster and moves on.
I am an advocate of gun ownership, and I care. I even have a response below....
No manufacturer has given me a gun yet, how do I get on this program? Each one I had to go to a store and purchase. I still have to buy ammo too.
What is with "the black ones" comment??? Black people are allowed to own guns, so are Asians, and Muslims, and Jews, and more.
"Domestic guns (secured or not) take far, far more innocent lives than they save." --- Do you have a citation for this??? or did you just make it up?

I would prefer that gun owners be held responsible for the actions of their gun. That would make sloppy gun owners more responsible.
There's people who have a gun get stolen, and don't even bother to report it.
I also believe you should have to go thru a minimal amount of training before you are permitted to purchase a gun. It's scary enough watching untrained people shop for a gun.
My fellow 'gun nuts' likely will not be with me on this, but if you have to register your car and renew it every year, something similar should be on the table for guns.
 

RideshareGuru

Well-Known Member
The other side of that is that gun violence has decreased by half in the United States in the past 30 years, even as (or perhaps because of) the number of people legally carrying in public has surged. And gun violence in the United States isn't evenly spread across all demographic and all locations. The great majority of gun violence is tied to urban violence, often related to the trade in illegal narcotics, committed with illegally owned firearms. That violence is going to happen regardless of any controls on legal gun owners. Comparing gun violence in Australia and the United States is misleading because of the different demographics in those countries. States like New Hampshire, Vermont, Iowa, Idaho, Wyoming and North Dakota have murder rates on par with Australia even though gun ownership is much higher. In Idaho, Wyoming and North Dakota, over half of all adults own guns. What those states don't have is large urban demographics.

Another factor that skews gun violence statistics in the United States is the fact that 2/3 of all gun deaths are suicides. Yet the suicide rate in the United States is comparable to Australia and below that of countries like Austria, Belgium, Finland, France and Sweden. Guns are simply used more frequently for suicides in the United States because they are available and seen as providing a more immediate and less painful death than other methods such as hanging, poisoning, jumping or cutting.
Interesting screenname for someone who is obviously pro-gun, lol.
 

RideshareGuru

Well-Known Member
Ok, so you have sorted out a real simple way of slashing firearm deaths and injuries by restricting ownership to rural areas only, or folk with membershi to sports shooting clubs. A bit like the system we have here in OZ
That doesn't work. Cities like Chicago and Washington DC had outright gun bans for over 30 years, and were constantly at the top of the list of cities with the highest murder rates. Once the DC vs. Heller Supreme court verdict was decided and citizens were allowed to legally own guns, crime started to decrease. Lesson: The best defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
 

Ehmtbescrewingus

Active Member
IOW, you are a statist who wants government control of guns even though the research on the subject proves it is a bad idea. Would you like to re-enact prohibition as well?
First off, if I were a statist I wouldn't own a gun, served in the military or openly support this forum. So get your facts straight before you throw labels, it makes you look small when you make uninformed comments. While I generally believe that everyone has an opinion, it doesn't even afford you a small opportunity to impose your thoughts on me from a single post. Nothing in my post indicated that I supported any form of regulatory actions.
 

Sydney Uber

Well-Known Member
There are no shortage of holsters on the market that allow for a quick release for those trained to use the holster, but would make it more difficult for unknowing people (especially children) to access the firearm if they found it.
This guy attempt to take the officers gun after the officer is unable to defend herself. However, he can't get it out of the holster and moves on.
I am an advocate of gun ownership, and I care. I even have a response below....
No manufacturer has given me a gun yet, how do I get on this program? Each one I had to go to a store and purchase. I still have to buy ammo too.
What is with "the black ones" comment??? Black people are allowed to own guns, so are Asians, and Muslims, and Jews, and more.
"Domestic guns (secured or not) take far, far more innocent lives than they save." --- Do you have a citation for this??? or did you just make it up?

I would prefer that gun owners be held responsible for the actions of their gun. That would make sloppy gun owners more responsible.
There's people who have a gun get stolen, and don't even bother to report it.
I also believe you should have to go thru a minimal amount of training before you are permitted to purchase a gun. It's scary enough watching untrained people shop for a gun.
My fellow 'gun nuts' likely will not be with me on this, but if you have to register your car and renew it every year, something similar should be on the table for guns.

I'd be happier if new technology would be used to restrict a gun's use to its registered owner.

Wouldn't help suicides though.
 

Sydney Uber

Well-Known Member
It's actually very difficult to get an automatic weapon in the United States. I'm not aware of any mass shootings that involved automatic weapons outside of a military context.

Secure storage of handguns away from domestic addresses would make them pointless for self defense. That's the premise of this thread.

Semi-Automatic Weapons then
 

Sydney Uber

Well-Known Member
That doesn't work. Cities like Chicago and Washington DC had outright gun bans for over 30 years, and were constantly at the top of the list of cities with the highest murder rates. Once the DC vs. Heller Supreme court verdict was decided and citizens were allowed to legally own guns, crime started to decrease. Lesson: The best defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Heres an example of slack gun handling.

That Chimp picks it up pretty quick! Then does a victory dance - did he figure out his sudden elevation in influence by clearing the area of humans? I bet a few seconds after the video stopped his little head got blown off his shoulders. About the only outcome I'd think. I dont think any of those guys would be up to negotiating with a Chimp armed with an AK47 (that actually is a funny vision)

 

RideshareGuru

Well-Known Member
First off, if I were a statist I wouldn't own a gun, served in the military or openly support this forum. So get your facts straight before you throw labels, it makes you look small when you make uninformed comments. While I generally believe that everyone has an opinion, it doesn't even afford you a small opportunity to impose your thoughts on me from a single post. Nothing in my post indicated that I supported any form of regulatory actions.
You referred to the discussion as anarchy when the discussion was about legal handling of firearms in the US. This legal discussion included permitting processes, handgun choice, and laws governing self defense. As to your most recent comment; you believe that statists don't serve in the military or participate in online forums?????? I imposed nothing on you. Please explain how I "impose thoughts" on someone without enacting some sort of legislation or turning those thoughts into some kind of forceful action. Thoughts and opinions exists whether you know about them or not. You came into a discussion and proclaimed it as anarchy and that it should end, kind of makes it look like you are the one trying to impose your thoughts on others, and that just proves that you are small. I stand by my orignial opinion of you: statist.
 

Ehmtbescrewingus

Active Member
You referred to the discussion as anarchy when the discussion was about legal handling of firearms in the US. This legal discussion included permitting processes, handgun choice, and laws governing self defense. As to your most recent comment; you believe that statists don't serve in the military or participate in online forums?????? I imposed nothing on you. Please explain how I "impose thoughts" on someone without enacting some sort of legislation or turning those thoughts into some kind of forceful action. Thoughts and opinions exists whether you know about them or not. You came into a discussion and proclaimed it as anarchy and that it should end, kind of makes it look like you are the one trying to impose your thoughts on others, and that just proves that you are small. I stand by my orignial opinion of you: statist.
I was early entrant into this discussion. And I don't play the argument game it's stupid. And I stand by my opinion that you're small in thought. Don't bother replying I don't give a shit either way.
 

RideshareGuru

Well-Known Member
Semi-Automatic Weapons then
Why do you gun ban types keep wanting to go down the list? Next it will be pump action, then anything with a magazine, then everything altogether. Let me ask you a question: England has a complete gun ban, did it stop crime? murders? even gun violence? No, it gave organized crime more power. It gave the government more power. Part of Hitler's way of crushing opposition was banning guns. He started with registration, then went to an outright ban and confiscation. Then his regime killed over 6 million people. Stalin did worse. Mao worse still. All said that common people should not own guns, they should be in the hands of the state only. Weapons are only tools. Criminals like a disarmed public, so do dictators. This contains a lot of pertinant statistics, including on England, where a total gun ban is in effect, and the murder rate has steadily risen since the 1968 enactment of their original gun control law. It won't let me post the link because of new user restrictions. But go to "just facts" dotcm slash gun control dot asp pound crime.
 
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