Inshur

GMB v Uber Employment Case

Would you prefer to be employed by Uber?

  • Yes - I want to earn the minimum wage & be told when and where to work and what to wear

    Votes: 3 9.1%
  • No - I only do Uber because of the flexibility it provides

    Votes: 20 60.6%
  • Yes - For Some other reason(s)

    Votes: 8 24.2%
  • No - For Some other reason(s)

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

uberx2

Well-Known Member
This week a case is being heard in the Employment Tribunal in London to force Uber to give drivers Employment Rights. This is great as it will cost Uber a lot of money in legal fees (although a better solution might be to raise the earnings of drivers by upping rates and cutting commission).

If successful Uber will have to pay employment benefits but of course in return will expect drivers to behave as employees. No unauthorised breaks, set start and finish times, more stringent dress code rules, and no more flexibility on the platform.

Personally I only do Uber because of the flexibility it provides. If I wanted an employed job I would go and drive a bus or something. What do you think?
 

uberR

Active Member
I doubt they would suddenly say all ph need to be employeed, if this happens in the very unlikely case then most of the small operators would most likely not survive. And the big ones will just pay a lot less and make more money. Uber on the other hand is hard to to say, I mean you might get a huge increase in people claiming compensation from them and they can no longer say claim from drivers insurance lol. Would be interesting too see how they would adapt if at all if in the very unlikely case it were to happen.
 

FullySynthetic

Active Member
You guys are missing the point . The ideea is if I work 12 hrs/day / 6 days I should have some minimum rights , even if I'm self employed .
So if I work 70hrs this week but I only make 4£/hr Uber should top it up to 7-10. And If I work 1 year with Uber they should give you 2 weeks of earnings as a bonus so you can rest .
How is this losing your freedom as an indipendent contractor ?
 

uberR

Active Member
I think the problem is people do not understand the difference. As a self employed contractor you can choose to do a given job based on a agreed fee between the two parties. It is down to you to decide whether a contract is worth your while or not.

Problem is in this case most drivers cannot calculate or are happy with what they are getting. If I was to get a builder to work on a site for a year on a given project, a fee for the work would be agreed on. If I find the builder too expensive I could go out and find a cheaper one, likewise the builder might find that a figure is not feasible and opt to not take on the project.
I do not have to pay the builder any holidays or pension. Uber kind of works in a similar way.

Although saying that I think in other fields if a temp/contractor is working in one place for over a year they should get the same rights as those that are employeed full time. But maybe the way uber is setup they don't fall into that category! Who knows.
 

uberx2

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
You guys are missing the point . The ideea is if I work 12 hrs/day / 6 days I should have some minimum rights , even if I'm self employed .
So if I work 70hrs this week but I only make 4£/hr Uber should top it up to 7-10. And If I work 1 year with Uber they should give you 2 weeks of earnings as a bonus so you can rest .
How is this losing your freedom as an indipendent contractor ?
That would be really lovely and I must confess I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that you were either employed or self employed:
Employed with all the benefits but the obligation to do what your employer wants or self employed to do whatever you want.

Uber offer the rates and you accept them of your own free will (other Operators are available!). I don't see how we're any different from (say) painters and decorators - a client offers a rate for a job and they either take it or leave it. They cant paint your house and then sue you because they would have made more working for somebody else and they haven't earned enough to have a holiday.
 

essexman

Well-Known Member
I think the problem is people do not understand the difference. As a self employed contractor you can choose to do a given job based on a agreed fee between the two parties. It is down to you to decide whether a contract is worth your while or not.

Problem is in this case most drivers cannot calculate or are happy with what they are getting. If I was to get a builder to work on a site for a year on a given project, a fee for the work would be agreed on. If I find the builder too expensive I could go out and find a cheaper one, likewise the builder might find that a figure is not feasible and opt to not take on the project.
I do not have to pay the builder any holidays or pension. Uber kind of works in a similar way.

Although saying that I think in other fields if a temp/contractor is working in one place for over a year they should get the same rights as those that are employeed full time. But maybe the way uber is setup they don't fall into that category! Who knows.
Problem I see in this case is Ubers claims of earnings saying you earn 1000k when you have lots of costs to this fuel insurance car depreciation maintenance costs.Also you don't know the job uber is going to give you it's forced on you like an employer does.
 

Xvandriver.nowuberX

Well-Known Member
The other issue uber banning you for 10 minutes when you don't accept 2 or more jobs so technically you are being forced to accept majority of the jobs given so that kind of takes away your flexibility of being able to choose your jobs.

Another issue is that you can't ask for any cash payments if your pax has been sick or have left anything in the car under uber policies as its a non cash app so your self employed but working under uber's conditions not your own.
 

gary rayner

Active Member
I
The other issue uber banning you for 10 minutes when you don't accept 2 or more jobs so technically you are being forced to accept majority of the jobs given so that kind of takes away your flexibility of being able to choose your jobs.

Another issue is that you can't ask for any cash payments if your pax has been sick or have left anything in the car under uber policies as its a non cash app so your self employed but working under uber's conditions not your own.
I'm always surprised when people complain about Uber taking the freedom away like Sin Bin for 10 minutes after rejecting 2 jobs in a row or making you work 6 days a week 12 hours shifts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Uber either but Uber is far better than most if not all PH operators.

Strict shift patterns signing on between a 2 hour slot or being in the Bin for the rest of your shift.
Rejecting a job - 45 Minutes Sin-Bin.
Once accepted a job - You have to do it. No matter how tired you are or if it is your last job and it's going completely the other way.
Account jobs- Shit rates. Most being despatched to you plenty ahead of booking times ( 30-90 minutes before booking time depending from where the pick up is and how far from the Operator's base area it is and you could get peanuts for it). I remember of an account job in Chelmsford being despatched to me 2 hours before it was due. So waited 2 hours unpaid and then was a local job so got paid£ 11.60 before commission at the end for a total of nearly 3 hours with having that job on my screen.
Free waiting times upto 15 minutes with most big PH operators so you could be waiting for 225 minues ( ie 15 jobs a day for a full shift) for free if every customer made you wait for 15 minutes and can get away with it without paying any extra.
Jobs being despatched to "closest driver or back up queues" that could be 20 miles away. So you could be driving across whole of London to if Controller needs a job to be covered.
No shows from miles away, jobs being booked wrongly by the telephonists ie incorrect time and date. No shows from airports so pretty much waisted your whole day. No shows with jobs for that you had to wait plenty of time ahead due to booking time.
Jobs being priced on shortest routes so you could be driving 12 miles when the job is priced for 7 miles. Stuck in heavy heavy traffic or have to divert massively due to traffic or road closures but still being paid the shortest route. Airport jobs being priced on shortest routes. Gatwick to Barnet shortest route 35 miles but realistically you will be driving 75 miles and get paid for 35 miles.
You are working under a controller so have to be in his good books or you could get the worst of the worst.
Favourism happens more then plenty in any PH firm no matter how big or reputable the company is. So the nice long runs only for a selected few drivers and rest left with f$#@ all.
Silly complaints from customers which lead to you being suspended without having heard your side of the story even if it is a Friday evening and you could be suspended for the full weekend until the manager investigates it properly on Monday.
And the list goes on and on....

So to summarise Uber is still much much better than any PH operator. A lot more freedom than any other operator can offer you.

CURRENT RATES- that is the only thing to complain about nothing else. Everything else is minor, very minor compared to what we have to put up with other operators.
 

Swifty126

Well-Known Member
I


I'm always surprised when people complain about Uber taking the freedom away like Sin Bin for 10 minutes after rejecting 2 jobs in a row or making you work 6 days a week 12 hours shifts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Uber either but Uber is far better than most if not all PH operators.

Strict shift patterns signing on between a 2 hour slot or being in the Bin for the rest of your shift.
Rejecting a job - 45 Minutes Sin-Bin.
Once accepted a job - You have to do it. No matter how tired you are or if it is your last job and it's going completely the other way.
Account jobs- Shit rates. Most being despatched to you plenty ahead of booking times ( 30-90 minutes before booking time depending from where the pick up is and how far from the Operator's base area it is and you could get peanuts for it). I remember of an account job in Chelmsford being despatched to me 2 hours before it was due. So waited 2 hours unpaid and then was a local job so got paid£ 11.60 before commission at the end for a total of nearly 3 hours with having that job on my screen.
Free waiting times upto 15 minutes with most big PH operators so you could be waiting for 225 minues ( ie 15 jobs a day for a full shift) for free if every customer made you wait for 15 minutes and can get away with it without paying any extra.
Jobs being despatched to "closest driver or back up queues" that could be 20 miles away. So you could be driving across whole of London to if Controller needs a job to be covered.
No shows from miles away, jobs being booked wrongly by the telephonists ie incorrect time and date. No shows from airports so pretty much waisted your whole day. No shows with jobs for that you had to wait plenty of time ahead due to booking time.
Jobs being priced on shortest routes so you could be driving 12 miles when the job is priced for 7 miles. Stuck in heavy heavy traffic or have to divert massively due to traffic or road closures but still being paid the shortest route. Airport jobs being priced on shortest routes. Gatwick to Barnet shortest route 35 miles but realistically you will be driving 75 miles and get paid for 35 miles.
You are working under a controller so have to be in his good books or you could get the worst of the worst.
Favourism happens more then plenty in any PH firm no matter how big or reputable the company is. So the nice long runs only for a selected few drivers and rest left with f$#@ all.
Silly complaints from customers which lead to you being suspended without having heard your side of the story even if it is a Friday evening and you could be suspended for the full weekend until the manager investigates it properly on Monday.
And the list goes on and on....

So to summarise Uber is still much much better than any PH operator. A lot more freedom than any other operator can offer you.

CURRENT RATES- that is the only thing to complain about nothing else. Everything else is minor, very minor compared to what we have to put up with other operators.
Very accurate summery of PH operators
The only thing with uber us the low fares,only if TFL begin to set the fares for PH I think the whole industry would improve,basically they could use the PDA as a meter for time and distance just like the uber device
 

ill be bach

Active Member
I


I'm always surprised when people complain about Uber taking the freedom away like Sin Bin for 10 minutes after rejecting 2 jobs in a row or making you work 6 days a week 12 hours shifts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Uber either but Uber is far better than most if not all PH operators.

Strict shift patterns signing on between a 2 hour slot or being in the Bin for the rest of your shift.
Rejecting a job - 45 Minutes Sin-Bin.
Once accepted a job - You have to do it. No matter how tired you are or if it is your last job and it's going completely the other way.
Account jobs- Shit rates. Most being despatched to you plenty ahead of booking times ( 30-90 minutes before booking time depending from where the pick up is and how far from the Operator's base area it is and you could get peanuts for it). I remember of an account job in Chelmsford being despatched to me 2 hours before it was due. So waited 2 hours unpaid and then was a local job so got paid£ 11.60 before commission at the end for a total of nearly 3 hours with having that job on my screen.
Free waiting times upto 15 minutes with most big PH operators so you could be waiting for 225 minues ( ie 15 jobs a day for a full shift) for free if every customer made you wait for 15 minutes and can get away with it without paying any extra.
Jobs being despatched to "closest driver or back up queues" that could be 20 miles away. So you could be driving across whole of London to if Controller needs a job to be covered.
No shows from miles away, jobs being booked wrongly by the telephonists ie incorrect time and date. No shows from airports so pretty much waisted your whole day. No shows with jobs for that you had to wait plenty of time ahead due to booking time.
Jobs being priced on shortest routes so you could be driving 12 miles when the job is priced for 7 miles. Stuck in heavy heavy traffic or have to divert massively due to traffic or road closures but still being paid the shortest route. Airport jobs being priced on shortest routes. Gatwick to Barnet shortest route 35 miles but realistically you will be driving 75 miles and get paid for 35 miles.
You are working under a controller so have to be in his good books or you could get the worst of the worst.
Favourism happens more then plenty in any PH firm no matter how big or reputable the company is. So the nice long runs only for a selected few drivers and rest left with f$#@ all.
Silly complaints from customers which lead to you being suspended without having heard your side of the story even if it is a Friday evening and you could be suspended for the full weekend until the manager investigates it properly on Monday.
And the list goes on and on....

So to summarise Uber is still much much better than any PH operator. A lot more freedom than any other operator can offer you.

CURRENT RATES- that is the only thing to complain about nothing else. Everything else is minor, very minor compared to what we have to put up with other operators.
Good points!, the grass is not always greener on the other side.
 
Last edited:

UberLuxbod

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Addison Lee has more to lose from this case than Uber.

Uber don't provide the tools for you to work for a start.

They don't control your working hours, but clearly are claiming down on drivers that are logged on blanking jobs.

This is all BS and being instigated by people high up in the GMB that view Uber as a threat to their own livelihood.

The funny thing is I did some work for the very same GMB bod and he took ages to pay (think months not weeks) and you never knew what the rates where, wether they were Exec/Chauffeur or even Saloon rates, you just had to find out when you eventually got paid.

The PH trade is full of sharks, always has been and always will be.

Half of the big account operators never give you the radio deposit back.

If GMB win the entire London PH Industry is @@@@ed.

Why don't they just compete with Uber, the traveling public will use who they want to use.
 

UberLuxbod

Well-Known Member
Moderator
You guys are missing the point . The ideea is if I work 12 hrs/day / 6 days I should have some minimum rights , even if I'm self employed .
So if I work 70hrs this week but I only make 4£/hr Uber should top it up to 7-10. And If I work 1 year with Uber they should give you 2 weeks of earnings as a bonus so you can rest .
How is this losing your freedom as an indipendent contractor ?
I think you have been reading too many comments from the US.

No such thing as an independant contractor.

How can you be given a guaranteed wage if you are self employed?

There are some firms that pay their drivers PAYE, if you want guaranteed hourly rates that is your way forward. Though you will soon get tired of doing LHR to W1 for £10.

As when you are PAYE they want their monies worth.

If you don't want to do 10/12 hour shifts without a guaranteed hourly rate then there are plenty of PAYE jobs available.

What annoys me is that a few drivers and a few GMB officials are the cause of this.

The vast, and I do mean vast, majority are happy with how things are.

If anybody thinks PH is hard they should do their LGV Licence and drive a LGV round London doing multi drops.
 

UberLuxbod

Well-Known Member
Moderator
I doubt they would suddenly say all ph need to be employeed, if this happens in the very unlikely case then most of the small operators would most likely not survive. And the big ones will just pay a lot less and make more money. Uber on the other hand is hard to to say, I mean you might get a huge increase in people claiming compensation from them and they can no longer say claim from drivers insurance lol. Would be interesting too see how they would adapt if at all if in the very unlikely case it were to happen.
If overheads increase the big players will make the same or more profit.

Drivers will make minimum wage. And probably have to commute in their own vehicle to pick up their PH Vehicle from a massive compound where the vehicles will be getting used 24/7.

The idiots that have started this have no idea what they are doing.

Just like the Ph Driver that GMB convinced to upload a snide cover note, the people at GMB were all good and now he had to find a new Operator to work for.

But the fact that he did what he did may well have an impact on his PH Lic Renewal.

I wouldn't consider somebody that did something like that to be a fit and proper person to be a PH Driver.

I would have had more respect for the GMB lot if one of them had signed up to Uber and done it rather than convince a patsy to do it. They showed their true colours.....
 

Addleeme

Well-Known Member
You guys are missing the point . The ideea is if I work 12 hrs/day / 6 days I should have some minimum rights , even if I'm self employed .
So if I work 70hrs this week but I only make 4£/hr Uber should top it up to 7-10. And If I work 1 year with Uber they should give you 2 weeks of earnings as a bonus so you can rest .
How is this losing your freedom as an indipendent contractor ?
Because that makes you employed
 

Addleeme

Well-Known Member
If overheads increase the big players will make the same or more profit.

Drivers will make minimum wage. And probably have to commute in their own vehicle to pick up their PH Vehicle from a massive compound where the vehicles will be getting used 24/7.

The idiots that have started this have no idea what they are doing.

Just like the Ph Driver that GMB convinced to upload a snide cover note, the people at GMB were all good and now he had to find a new Operator to work for.

But the fact that he did what he did may well have an impact on his PH Lic Renewal.

I wouldn't consider somebody that did something like that to be a fit and proper person to be a PH Driver.

I would have had more respect for the GMB lot if one of them had signed up to Uber and done it rather than convince a patsy to do it. They showed their true colours.....
Correctamondoes
 

aliens77

Well-Known Member
That would be really lovely and I must confess I'm not a lawyer but I always thought that you were either employed or self employed:
Employed with all the benefits but the obligation to do what your employer wants or self employed to do whatever you want.

Uber offer the rates and you accept them of your own free will (other Operators are available!). I don't see how we're any different from (say) painters and decorators - a client offers a rate for a job and they either take it or leave it. They cant paint your house and then sue you because they would have made more working for somebody else and they haven't earned enough to have a holiday.
It's a bit different with painters and decorators coz they make the price and the client can negotiate it but PH drivers don't decide the price unless you hold an op licence that's the difference.
 

uberx2

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
It's a bit different with painters and decorators coz they make the price and the client can negotiate it but PH drivers don't decide the price unless you hold an op licence that's the difference.
That's partly true in the case of private clients but most sub work is at a rate specified by the buyer (customer), which you can take or leave of your own free will.

As for setting rates it is the driver not the operator that sets the rates and it always has been: The operator sets a rate for their operation and drivers are free to work for that rate or move to another operator with better rates. We can freely choose higher volume very low rates from Uber or higher rates with lower volumes from another operator (2800 available with varying rates). Uber's rates will only rise when they need to attract more drivers with better rates, and that's only going to come about if we stop working on the platform until the rates improve.

Perhaps the trade associations and applicants in this court case would be better educating drivers of this fact and ending the race to the bottom that we seem to be caught up in?

Black Taxis actually have no control over the rates at all and no freedom to choose what rates they work for, but there's never been any call for them to employed by TfL?
 

UberLuxbod

Well-Known Member
Moderator
I would agree that Black Cabs are not responsible for setting the rates on the meter.

But they are free to negotiate a price as long as it is not more than the metered fare.

They seem to be free to do Weddings aswell without extra Insurance coverage.
 

aliens77

Well-Known Member
The real problem that uber have created is the low rate as it was mentioned above and I add the silly uber pool, if they ban the pool and increase the rate only to 1.7£ per mile and 0.2£ per min it will be good for every1 and we all can make a living.
 
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