Employee or Contractor?

Paul Collins

Well-Known Member
https://irsimplified.com.au/are-they-an-employee-or-contractor/


Employee
  • Control:
    Work is performed under the direction and control of their employer, on an ongoing basis.
    (Nope)
  • Delegation:
    Is not able to give the work to someone else
    (Yep)
  • Working Hours:
    Generally, works standard or set hours.
    (Casual employee’s hours may vary from week to week or day to day).
    (Nope)
  • Ongoing Work:
    Has an expectation of ongoing work.
    (Some employees may be engaged for a specific task or specific period).
    (Nope)
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    Bears no financial risk for the product/service produced.
    (Nope)
  • Superannuation:
    Superannuation contributions are paid into a nominated superannuation fund by their employer.
    (Nope)
  • Tools/Equipment:
    Tools/equipment used are generally provided by the employer or entitled to a tool allowance.
    (Nope)
  • Tax:
    Has income tax deducted from their pay.
    (Nope)
  • Payment:
    Paid regularly (for example, weekly/fortnightly/monthly).
    (Yep)
  • Leave:
    Entitled to receive paid leave (annual leave, personal/carers’ leave, long service leave) or receive a loading in lieu of leave entitlements in the case of casual employees.
    (Nope)


Contractor
When it comes to the principal/contractor relationship, things are a little different.

  • Control:
    Have a higher level of control in how the work is done.
    (Yep)
  • Delegation:
    May be able to delegate the work on to someone else within the same contracted organisation
    (Nope)
  • Working Hours:
    Under agreement, the contractor decides what hours to work to complete the specific task(s).
    (Yep)
  • Ongoing Work:
    Usually engaged to complete a specific task.
    (Yep)
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    Bears the risk in making a profit/loss on each task.
    Usually bears the responsibility and liability for poor work or injury sustained while performing the task.
    {Contractors generally have their own insurance policy}.
    (Yep)
  • Superannuation:
    Pays their own superannuation.
    (In some circumstances independent contractors may be entitled to be paid superannuation contributions).
    (Yep)
  • Tools/Equipment:
    Uses their own tools and equipment.
    (Alternative arrangements may be made within a contract for services, such as leases, etc).
    (Yep)
  • Tax:
    Pays their own tax and collects GST on behalf of the Australian Taxation Office.
    (Yep)
  • Payment:
    Submits an invoice for work completed or is paid at the end of the contract or project.
    (Yep)
  • Leave:
    Does not receive paid leave.
    (Yep)
 

UberDriverAU

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I am still confused. Are you saying that the verdict was that taxi drivers were not employees?
That is what he's trying to say. Bailee taxi drivers are not employees of taxi owners unless the factors which indicate employment are present. If a taxi owner simply hands over the keys to a bailee driver and has no other involvement besides accepting payment for the lease of the vehicle, our courts have ruled there cannot be an employment relationship. The situation with Uber is very different, obviously.
 

UberDriverAU

Well-Known Member
  • Control:
    • Uber extensively controls how and when the work is performed. Drivers must use Uber's software, must adhere to Uber's behavioural guidelines, etc. Once you have accepted work, there are strict timelines that must be adhered to. This is a strong indicator of employment.
  • Delegation:
    • Uber explicitly prohibits delegation of the work. This is a strong indicator of employment.
  • Working Hours:
    • As with a truly casual employee, there are no standard or set hours. Once work has been accepted, the task must be completed without interruption.
  • Ongoing Work:
    • Uber drivers have a very real expectation of ongoing work. There hasn't been a day that I've gone "Online" to flag that "I'm available to be offered work" that I haven't been offered work.
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    • Both Uber and drivers bear financial risk in the provision of the service. Uber accepts 100% of the risk for non-payment by passengers, as well as having insurance policies in place for third party personal and property damage.
  • Superannuation:
    • No superannuation is paid. A weak indicator of being a contractor. In an employment relationship, it's usually a consequence of how the party with a stronger bargaining position chooses to characterise the relationship.
  • Tools/Equipment:
    • A phone and car is provided by the driver. The software to make everything work is provided by Uber. This is perhaps the strongest indicator of being a contractor, but our courts say that where a piece of equipment can be extensively used for personal purposes, less weight is given to this factor. The use of a highly specialised piece of equipment that requires special training to use would be a far stronger indicator of a contractor relationship.
  • Tax:
    • No tax is withheld. A weak indicator of being a contractor. In an employment relationship, it's usually a consequence of how the party with a stronger bargaining position chooses to characterise the relationship.
  • Payment:
    • Paid weekly without having to submit any invoices. Paid on either a commission or combination of piece rates and time rate basis. Either way is an indicator of employment.
    • Payment is still made whether or not the customer has actually paid. This is an indicator of employment.
    • Payment is not dependent on providing a result. This is an indicator of employment.
      • The driver is paid if the rider cancels after 5 minutes.
      • The driver is paid if they arrive and the rider is a "No Show".
      • The driver is paid if the trip is ended early and the desired "result" isn't obtained. Eg. the rider vomits in the car and the driver kicks the rider out, the car runs out of fuel, etc.
  • Leave:
    • No leave is paid. This is completely consistent with casual employment. Not indicative of being either an employee or contractor.
 
Last edited:

Paul Collins

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
And yet we remain as small businesses and are not employees. If that changes, then it changes but right now we are not classed or paid as employees.
 

Golfer

Well-Known Member
And yet we remain as small businesses and are not employees. If that changes, then it changes but right now we are not classed or paid as employees.
Paul you are spot on there is no way in the world we can be employees. Perhaps these blockheads that disagree would understand the inclusion of the word SUB Contracter. Your work description,( as subbie in previous industries) are exactly the same as with Uber. ps we even pay Uber"s GST I have never had to do that before. Again I say you are right, I think all that disagree should read your summary again
 

PhantomDriver

Well-Known Member
Paul you are spot on there is no way in the world we can be employees. Perhaps these blockheads that disagree would understand the inclusion of the word SUB Contracter. Your work description,( as subbie in previous industries) are exactly the same as with Uber. ps we even pay Uber"s GST I have never had to do that before. Again I say you are right, I think all that disagree should read your summary again
Stick to golf?
 

UberDriverAU

Well-Known Member
and now do the same for the contractor section? Or are you doing the employee section?
There isn't a "contractor section". You select the appropriate answers and the tool will give you an answer of "Worker is an employee" or "Worker is a contractor". The tool says Uber drivers are employees.
 

senorCRV

Well-Known Member
And yet we remain as small businesses and are not employees. If that changes, then it changes but right now we are not classed or paid as employees.
IRS has a habit of changing this... Usually quite brutally to the "employer"

When it happens in US it's gonna change everything everywhere.

You see, when you send out your CEO to brag about Billions in revenue and blame Billions in payments to drivers for your losses... The government starts to want those hundreds of millions to billions in back payroll taxes you didn't pay by calling your employees "contractors". Not to mention the tax ramifications of both corporation and individual driver in said situation.

Face reality, if you're working full time at min wage and being paid mileage you're making triple what UBER is paying now and the gov't gets a cut of that regardless of how much you can write off.
 
Last edited:

GPH

Active Member
  • Control:
    • Uber extensively controls how and when the work is performed. Drivers must use Uber's software, must adhere to Uber's behavioural guidelines, etc. Once you have accepted work, there are strict timelines that must be adhered to. This is a strong indicator of employment.
  • Delegation:
    • Uber explicitly prohibits delegation of the work. This is a strong indicator of employment.
  • Working Hours:
    • As with a truly casual employee, there are no standard or set hours. Once work has been accepted, the task must be completed without interruption.
  • Ongoing Work:
    • Uber drivers have a very real expectation of ongoing work. There hasn't been a day that I've gone "Online" to flag that "I'm available to be offered work" that I haven't been offered work.
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    • Both Uber and drivers bear financial risk in the provision of the service. Uber accepts 100% of the risk for non-payment by passengers, as well as having insurance policies in place for third party personal and property damage.
  • Superannuation:
    • No superannuation is paid. A weak indicator of being a contractor. In an employment relationship, it's usually a consequence of how the party with a stronger bargaining position chooses to characterise the relationship.
  • Tools/Equipment:
    • A phone and car is provided by the driver. The software to make everything work is provided by Uber. This is perhaps the strongest indicator of being a contractor, but our courts say that where a piece of equipment can be extensively used for personal purposes, less weight is given to this factor. The use of a highly specialised piece of equipment that requires special training to use would be a far stronger indicator of a contractor relationship.
  • Tax:
    • No tax is withheld. A weak indicator of being a contractor. In an employment relationship, it's usually a consequence of how the party with a stronger bargaining position chooses to characterise the relationship.
  • Payment:
    • Paid weekly without having to submit any invoices. Paid on either a commission or combination of piece rates and time rate basis. Either way is an indicator of employment.
    • Payment is still made whether or not the customer has actually paid. This is an indicator of employment.
    • Payment is not dependent on providing a result. This is an indicator of employment.
      • The driver is paid if the rider cancels after 5 minutes.
      • The driver is paid if they arrive and the rider is a "No Show".
      • The driver is paid if the trip is ended early and the desired "result" isn't obtained. Eg. the rider vomits in the car and the driver kicks the rider out, the car runs out of fuel, etc.
  • Leave:
    • No leave is paid. This is completely consistent with casual employment. Not indicative of being either an employee or contractor.
There is an invoice, it's an RCTI (Recipient created tax invoice). Saves hassle and is a standard format.
 

UberDriverAU

Well-Known Member
There is an invoice, it's an RCTI (Recipient created tax invoice). Saves hassle and is a standard format.
Provide us an example of one that Uber has created. I bet you can't. Have you signed a written agreement with Uber authorising them to create such invoices? I know I haven't. Why would they need a tax invoice (recipient created or otherwise) when they don't need to worry about GST?
 

Paul Collins

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
There isn't a "contractor section". You select the appropriate answers and the tool will give you an answer of "Worker is an employee" or "Worker is a contractor". The tool says Uber drivers are employees.
No, to this

Contractor
When it comes to the principal/contractor relationship, things are a little different.

  • Control:
    Have a higher level of control in how the work is done.
    (Yep)
  • Delegation:
    May be able to delegate the work on to someone else within the same contracted organisation
    (Nope)
  • Working Hours:
    Under agreement, the contractor decides what hours to work to complete the specific task(s).
    (Yep)
  • Ongoing Work:
    Usually engaged to complete a specific task.
    (Yep)
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    Bears the risk in making a profit/loss on each task.
    Usually bears the responsibility and liability for poor work or injury sustained while performing the task.
    {Contractors generally have their own insurance policy}.
    (Yep)
  • Superannuation:
    Pays their own superannuation.
    (In some circumstances independent contractors may be entitled to be paid superannuation contributions).
    (Yep)
  • Tools/Equipment:
    Uses their own tools and equipment.
    (Alternative arrangements may be made within a contract for services, such as leases, etc).
    (Yep)
  • Tax:
    Pays their own tax and collects GST on behalf of the Australian Taxation Office.
    (Yep)
  • Payment:
    Submits an invoice for work completed or is paid at the end of the contract or project.
    (Yep)
  • Leave:
    Does not receive paid leave.
    (Yep)
 

UberDriverAU

Well-Known Member
No, to this

Contractor
When it comes to the principal/contractor relationship, things are a little different.

  • Control:
    Have a higher level of control in how the work is done.
    (Yep)
  • Delegation:
    May be able to delegate the work on to someone else within the same contracted organisation
    (Nope)
  • Working Hours:
    Under agreement, the contractor decides what hours to work to complete the specific task(s).
    (Yep)
  • Ongoing Work:
    Usually engaged to complete a specific task.
    (Yep)
  • Risk/Responsibility:
    Bears the risk in making a profit/loss on each task.
    Usually bears the responsibility and liability for poor work or injury sustained while performing the task.
    {Contractors generally have their own insurance policy}.
    (Yep)
  • Superannuation:
    Pays their own superannuation.
    (In some circumstances independent contractors may be entitled to be paid superannuation contributions).
    (Yep)
  • Tools/Equipment:
    Uses their own tools and equipment.
    (Alternative arrangements may be made within a contract for services, such as leases, etc).
    (Yep)
  • Tax:
    Pays their own tax and collects GST on behalf of the Australian Taxation Office.
    (Yep)
  • Payment:
    Submits an invoice for work completed or is paid at the end of the contract or project.
    (Yep)
  • Leave:
    Does not receive paid leave.
    (Yep)
I addressed all of these points in an earlier post:

https://uberpeople.net/threads/employee-or-contractor.130270/#post-1914131
 

GPH

Active Member
its academic anyway. if the ruling is "employees", the party will be all but over. if it is "contractors' , then life resumes and all is well
 
Top