California says Uber is classified as a transportation firm and owes back fees!

BurgerTiime

Well-Known Member
State regulator ruling could cost Uber ‘millions
http://www.sfexaminer.com/state-regulator-ruling-cost-uber-millions/amp/

State regulators changed how they legally classify ride-hail giant Uber on Thursday, a technical move that may cost the company millions of dollars.

The California Public Utilities Commission voted Thursday morning to classify Uber partially as a charter party carrier, a designation usually used for towncars or limousines, due to the existence of Uber SUV and Uber Black services.

Uber Black is an option in Uber’s app that lets riders hail towncars that the company’s website calls “high-end rides.”

The ride-hail company’s new classification will also require it to pay fees to the CPUC going back three years, according to a legal decision by CPUC Commissioner Liane Randolph. The CPUC said it has yet to calculate the amount of those fees.

An Uber spokesperson told the San Francisco Examiner the company disagrees with the CPUC’s ruling and will appeal the decision.

The new designation will make Uber known legally in California as both a charter party carrier and a transportation network company, the latter of which is the state’s designation for ride-hails like Uber and Lyft. Previously, Uber’s subsidiary, Rasier-CA, took the brunt of legal wrangling for charter party carrier status. Rasier is a corporation registered in Delaware.

But in her decision, Randolph wrote that Rasier should not be the only entity regulated, as functionally it is “a mere instrumentality” of Uber. Rasier has no operations in California, she wrote, and Uber staff performs many legal functions Rasier should be responsible for, including investigating safety incidents, investigating complaints against the zero-tolerance intoxication policy for drivers and taking actions against intoxicated drivers.


Uber uses a number of subsidiaries in California for its myriad services: Uber USA, LLC and UATC, LLC, Rasier-CA, Rasier, LLC, and more.

In legal filings with the CPUC, Uber wrote that designating Uber as a charter party carrier, instead of Rasier, would create duplicative regulatory compliance leading to “millions of dollars in unnecessary and additional operational costs, and the implementation of the necessary operational changes could potentially harm aspects of the (ride-hail) service provided in California.”

In her ruling, Randolph wrote that problems arising from Uber’s corporate structure were of “Uber’s own design.”

“It was Uber’s decision alone regarding how it would operate its business with the creation of subsidiaries totally lacking in employees and dependent on Uber to run their (ride-hail and charter) operations,” she wrote. “What the commission needs to concern itself with is the goal of ensuring the entity … registers.”

Marcelo Fonseca, a San Francisco taxi driver, told the commission he welcomed the decision, but wished it would go further. Because the CPUC designated ride-hails like Uber and Lyft as “transportation network companies,” he said, cities have been unable to directly regulate and limit ride-hails, which has impacted the taxi industry.

“You dumped 50,000 of them on our streets and you turned driving for hire into a dead end,” he told commissioners in public comment. “Although I support commissioner Randolph’s findings that Uber is a TCP charter party carrier … I urge you to revisit the TNC issue. Uber X and Lyft are taxicabs in every sense of the word.”

PUBLISHED BY
Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez


REGULATIONS:
https://www.lctmag.com/news/729550/uber-now-must-follow-the-limo-rules-in-a-california
 
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Trafficat

Well-Known Member
Marcelo Fonseca, a San Francisco taxi driver, told the commission he welcomed the decision, but wished it would go further. Because the CPUC designated ride-hails like Uber and Lyft as “transportation network companies,” he said, cities have been unable to directly regulate and limit ride-hails, which has impacted the taxi industry.

“You dumped 50,000 of them on our streets and you turned driving for hire into a dead end,” he told commissioners in public comment. “Although I support commissioner Randolph’s findings that Uber is a TCP charter party carrier … I urge you to revisit the TNC issue. Uber X and Lyft are taxicabs in every sense of the word.”

Uber and Lyft may be taxi service. And the surplus of drivers may make driving not a good financial decision for those who it has historically been good for who are the highest earners in the previous system of stifled competition.

But for every taxi driver who lost a good living through the competition, on the other side of the coin you have rideshare drivers who are only doing it because it elevates their own condition and their condition would be worsened if they were forced out. The taxi driver can say he was there first but being first does not make you entitled. In a free market whoever provides the best service for the least money wins. And today that's rideshare, and tomorrow it may be self-driving cars. In a free market you have to adapt to changing times.

If the money becomes too little, that means you should find something else to do and let someone else willing to do it for so little do it. I personally believe that the only reason so many rideshare drivers are financially desperate is because the economy is so over regulated that getting almost any job is extremely difficult. Rideshare provides regulatory loopholes that make getting a job easy, and that's why it is oversaturated. But if getting all jobs were easy rideshare drivers would easily jump ship. Imagine a world where you didn't need a license to be a hair stylist. There would be more hair stylists. Less money per hair stylist, but I bet a lot of Uber drivers whining about making only $10/hr would be hair stylists making $12, and so on.

In my opinion a fluid labor market is best for the workers and the limits on the taxi market are very short-sighted that protect only existing cab drivers to keep their own job while similar regulation across all industries makes it challenging for a taxi driver with other talents to be able to move to another field where he could make more because the other field will be equally as regulated and restrictive.

It seems to me that with a highly regulated labor market, nepotism is the key to any position rather than individual merit or quality of service.
 
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Stevie The magic Unicorn

Well-Known Member
Uber will appeal...

Beyond that nothing is certain.


This could be the regulatory nightmare that kept the management awake at night.

But if uber loses the ability to use independent contractors in a market, they will have to massively crank up prices or leave. That's all there is to it.


Employees are entitled by law to make min wage free and clear of all deductions.

In Orlando that would require making $8.05 per hour plus 53c per EVERY mile.

And On-call time would have to be paid as well, as the time between fares is completely impossible to guess, drivers fall under the catagory of being "engaged to wait" meaning that they can be called up at any minute, not having a set time to wait until.
 

uberdriverfornow

Well-Known Member
Uber SUV and Uber Black services have been suspended to eliminate the charter party carrier designation.

Is this for real ?

Is it safe to assume that Lyft hasn't been affected because they have already been paying their fees ? We know Uber pays no taxes, using an offshore shell account.
 

bsliv

Well-Known Member
Being an employee is not a good thing for Uber drivers. If drivers get reimbursed for mileage, there goes the tax deduction. And speaking of taxes, taxes will be kept out of the the weekly pay. Drivers will be assigned shifts and an area to work. No refusing a ride. Uniforms? Required greeting? Who's ready for 8 hours in the ghetto?

I'd imagine it would work similar to the Amazon Flex schedule. Check the app in the morning for available shifts. Pick the one you want, if there are any available. Once the driver arrives at their assigned location, turn the app on and punch the clock.

Hustlers and the efficient will lose out. Full time drivers will now gross $400 a week (at $10/hr) whether you know what you're doing or not. I wouldn't expect a paid vacation. I wouldn't expect a paid lunch hour. I wouldn't expect overtime.
 
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Stevie The magic Unicorn

Well-Known Member
Being an employee is not a good thing for Uber drivers. If drivers get reimbursed for mileage, there goes the tax deduction. And speaking of taxes, taxes will be kept out of the the weekly pay. Drivers will be assigned shifts and an area to work. No refusing a ride. Uniforms? Required greeting? Who's ready for 8 hours in the ghetto?

I'd imagine it would work similar to the Amazon Flex schedule. Check the app in the morning for available shifts. Pick the one you want, if there are any available. Once the driver arrives at their assigned location, turn the app on and punch the clock.

Hustlers and the efficient will lose out.

Nope..

Uber will close up shop in cali first..

The cab companies couldn't afford to operate with employees, there's no way uber can paying their drivers. The cab companies used to be able to operate leaner by issuing company vehicles than by paying per mile rates.

And getting paid for mileage is a good thing.
The fact that your taxes are getting wiped out by deductions is a bad thing.

For orlando 8 hours MINIMUM pay would be in the neighborhood of...

$151.60
With only $64.40 being taxable
(plus tolls)
PLUS TIPS

That's... A LOT more than they are making now here. If that was the case i would go back to uber.
 

KevinH

Well-Known Member
If the money becomes too little, that means you should find something else to do and let someone else willing to do it for so little do it. I personally believe that the only reason so many rideshare drivers are financially desperate is because the economy is so over regulated that getting almost any job is extremely difficult.

Trafficat:
On a forum that frequently details all the inadequacies of rideshare jobs, I find it surprising that you have such a dismissive attitude towards worker exploitation.
Workplace protections are universal throughout developed countries not only to ensure that workers are treated fairly but that society is protected from the broad social effects of poverty, homelessness, and crime. While sweatshop wages in developing countries have proven to actually help build a initial platform for continuing economic advancement, substituting fair wage jobs with substandard paying jobs reverses the effect and becomes a threat to social advancement for all. One needs to look not to far to see the expanding economic divide happening in the US and other developed countries.

Secondly, rideshare work is frequently performed by immigrants with language issues and other individuals whose work history and education is not verifiable and find themselves excluded from jobs with fair pay and safe working conditions. While many on this forum have the benefit of a middle class upbringing, others that are less privileged or have fewer job opportunities because of social or physical handicaps are vulnerable to the sort exploitation schemes promoted in ridesharing. Choosing whether to work or not is not like choosing either a latte or a cappuccino, one has to work for food, shelter and family support. For many, rideshare work is a last resort and it also allows workers to stay on the job for up to 80-120 hrs/week.

This forum has documented the false promises of good wages and fun working conditions and many who enter into this field are unaware of the risks and downsides to the rideshare job. Driving while working is the #1 cause of job related deaths and job related injuries and rideshare companies cleverly avoid the responsibilities that all employers must bear for safety, accident prevention, medical cost reimbursement, continuing wages in the event of becoming disabled at work and even compensation to the families of those that lose their lives while driving professionally.
Finally, few look far enough down the road to anticipate losing their principal vehicle after an accident. Nearly all other professional driving jobs involve driving a vehicle provided by the employer and an accident does not keep the driver from continuing to work, they simply are assigned another vehicle from a pool. If someone thinks this is a small factor, take a look at sites like GoFundMe and search for the term Uber and Lyft. You will find over 13,000 charity pleas from injured drivers, the families of drivers killed on the job and those that cannot work because of the cost of mechanical or body car repairs. Sadly, many other pleas come from those that are unable to find work and just need a few dollars to enter into a sub-prime lease agreement, or perhaps purchase an older compact car to get on the road and get some food money and maybe make rent.

Privilege, especially white privilege term currently being thrown around but may of us take for granted growing up in a safe neighborhood in a country not torn by daily strife and violence. Perhaps we got a fair education and some of us made it to college and beyond. I encourage those that have those benefits to spend some time in charity work with those that are disadvantaged or have made mistakes in their lives. Donate time at a food bank, work a church kitchen at Thanksgiving, spend time helping the homeless, or perhaps tutor children of working single parent homes. You will get a better idea of how false promises of the rideshare industry lead many to even greater poverty and how some become stuck with negative equity in their vehicle and cannot leave a job that goes nowhere.
 

Stevie The magic Unicorn

Well-Known Member
Trafficat:
On a forum that frequently details all the inadequacies of rideshare jobs, I find it surprising that you have such a dismissive attitude towards worker exploitation.
Workplace protections are universal throughout developed countries not only to ensure that workers are treated fairly but that society is protected from the broad social effects of poverty, homelessness, and crime. While sweatshop wages in developing countries have proven to actually help build a initial platform for continuing economic advancement, substituting fair wage jobs with substandard paying jobs reverses the effect and becomes a threat to social advancement for all. One needs to look not to far to see the expanding economic divide happening in the US and other developed countries.

Secondly, rideshare work is frequently performed by immigrants with language issues and other individuals whose work history and education is not verifiable and find themselves excluded from jobs with fair pay and safe working conditions. While many on this forum have the benefit of a middle class upbringing, others that are less privileged or have fewer job opportunities because of social or physical handicaps are vulnerable to the sort exploitation schemes promoted in ridesharing. Choosing whether to work or not is not like choosing either a latte or a cappuccino, one has to work for food, shelter and family support. For many, rideshare work is a last resort and it also allows workers to stay on the job for up to 80-120 hrs/week.

This forum has documented the false promises of good wages and fun working conditions and many who enter into this field are unaware of the risks and downsides to the rideshare job. Driving while working is the #1 cause of job related deaths and job related injuries and rideshare companies cleverly avoid the responsibilities that all employers must bear for safety, accident prevention, medical cost reimbursement, continuing wages in the event of becoming disabled at work and even compensation to the families of those that lose their lives while driving professionally.
Finally, few look far enough down the road to anticipate losing their principal vehicle after an accident. Nearly all other professional driving jobs involve driving a vehicle provided by the employer and an accident does not keep the driver from continuing to work, they simply are assigned another vehicle from a pool. If someone thinks this is a small factor, take a look at sites like GoFundMe and search for the term Uber and Lyft. You will find over 13,000 charity pleas from injured drivers, the families of drivers killed on the job and those that cannot work because of the cost of mechanical or body car repairs. Sadly, many other pleas come from those that are unable to find work and just need a few dollars to enter into a sub-prime lease agreement, or perhaps purchase an older compact car to get on the road and get some food money and maybe make rent.

Privilege, especially white privilege term currently being thrown around but may of us take for granted growing up in a safe neighborhood in a country not torn by daily strife and violence. Perhaps we got a fair education and some of us made it to college and beyond. I encourage those that have those benefits to spend some time in charity work with those that are disadvantaged or have made mistakes in their lives. Donate time at a food bank, work a church kitchen at Thanksgiving, spend time helping the homeless, or perhaps tutor children of working single parent homes. You will get a better idea of how false promises of the rideshare industry lead many to even greater poverty and how some become stuck with negative equity in their vehicle and cannot leave a job that goes nowhere.

I gotta pay $50 a month for death/dismemberment/ accident insurance.

If i was an employee that would be free on workers comp.
 

uberdriverfornow

Well-Known Member
State regulator ruling could cost Uber ‘millions
http://www.sfexaminer.com/state-regulator-ruling-cost-uber-millions/amp/

State regulators changed how they legally classify ride-hail giant Uber on Thursday, a technical move that may cost the company millions of dollars.

The California Public Utilities Commission voted Thursday morning to classify Uber partially as a charter party carrier, a designation usually used for towncars or limousines, due to the existence of Uber SUV and Uber Black services.

Uber Black is an option in Uber’s app that lets riders hail towncars that the company’s website calls “high-end rides.”

The ride-hail company’s new classification will also require it to pay fees to the CPUC going back three years, according to a legal decision by CPUC Commissioner Liane Randolph. The CPUC said it has yet to calculate the amount of those fees.

An Uber spokesperson told the San Francisco Examiner the company disagrees with the CPUC’s ruling and will appeal the decision.

The new designation will make Uber known legally in California as both a charter party carrier

As I stated before when the initial ruling was issued a few weeks ago, the ruling applies only to the high end services, UberSUV and UberBlack.

and a transportation network company, the latter of which is the state’s designation for ride-hails like Uber and Lyft. Previously, Uber’s subsidiary, Rasier-CA, took the brunt of legal wrangling for charter party carrier status. Rasier is a corporation registered in Delaware.

But in her decision, Randolph wrote that Rasier should not be the only entity regulated, as functionally it is “a mere instrumentality” of Uber. Rasier has no operations in California, she wrote, and Uber staff performs many legal functions Rasier should be responsible for, including investigating safety incidents, investigating complaints against the zero-tolerance intoxication policy for drivers and taking actions against intoxicated drivers.


Uber uses a number of subsidiaries in California for its myriad services: Uber USA, LLC and UATC, LLC, Rasier-CA, Rasier, LLC, and more.

In legal filings with the CPUC, Uber wrote that designating Uber as a charter party carrier, instead of Rasier, would create duplicative regulatory compliance leading to “millions of dollars in unnecessary and additional operational costs, and the implementation of the necessary operational changes could potentially harm aspects of the (ride-hail) service provided in California.”

In her ruling, Randolph wrote that problems arising from Uber’s corporate structure were of “Uber’s own design.”

“It was Uber’s decision alone regarding how it would operate its business with the creation of subsidiaries totally lacking in employees and dependent on Uber to run their (ride-hail and charter) operations,” she wrote. “What the commission needs to concern itself with is the goal of ensuring the entity … registers.”

Marcelo Fonseca, a San Francisco taxi driver, told the commission he welcomed the decision, but wished it would go further. Because the CPUC designated ride-hails like Uber and Lyft as “transportation network companies,” he said, cities have been unable to directly regulate and limit ride-hails, which has impacted the taxi industry.

“You dumped 50,000 of them on our streets and you turned driving for hire into a dead end,” he told commissioners in public comment. “Although I support commissioner Randolph’s findings that Uber is a TCP charter party carrier … I urge you to revisit the TNC issue. Uber X and Lyft are taxicabs in every sense of the word.”

PUBLISHED BY
Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez


REGULATIONS:
https://www.lctmag.com/news/729550/uber-now-must-follow-the-limo-rules-in-a-california

I highlighted them in bold. Just expand the quotes.

At the bottom, you see the quote where the taxi driver says he believes it should apply to the TNC versions, namely UberX, Lyft etc etc.

Also, regarding have to call drivers employees, nowhere does it state that and I don't know where people are getting that. Even the taxi's call their drivers independent contrators.

There is nothing in the ruling that changes anything regarding employee status. Everyone is getting ahead of themselves.
 
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Trafficat

Well-Known Member
You will get a better idea of how false promises of the rideshare industry lead many to even greater poverty and how some become stuck with negative equity in their vehicle and cannot leave a job that goes nowhere.

Some people also try to make a living as a professional gambler and it doesn't always work out.

Personally I would not find it wise to try and do this job if you do not own outright the vehicle you are using.

And I would not find it wise to grant an auto loan to a person planning on using a vehicle for rideshare.

Doing rideshare on a borrowed vehicle you can't afford with meager rideshare fares sounds like a path to bankruptcy, which will ultimately punish most of all those who allowed the loans. When you file for bankruptcy, sure you lose your possessions and there is a stigma against that, but all of the people I personally know who have filed for bankruptcy in the past are now financially better off than I am.

If there was less regulation on labor in industries across the board, those who are overqualified for rideshare could move on more easily, meaning higher wages for those currently doing it.

You are right that there are a lot of people with fresh college degrees driving rideshare as their primary source of income. And those who aren't are often doing jobs at the very lowest end of the payscale that require minimal training, for which Uber actually is often a better deal if you do it smart. It is quite absurd! The reality for many young people is they were told the lies of how an education would advance them, when in fact too many people have diplomas. 20-30 years ago a college degree was an exceptional accomplishment but today only about half of degree holders (the most exceptional, and that doesn't mean GPA) will be able to make it work for them.

For many current diploma holders, the only good thing about having a diploma is the fact that they can leave it OFF their resume since no one wants to hire them for what they studied and companies won't even interview them for lower paying jobs knowing that such an over-educated individual is a poor company investment in a system where managing labor is exceedingly difficult.
 
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SEAL Team 5

Well-Known Member
Only had to read the first paragraph. Let's see, either Uber must raise their pricing giving none of the increase to the driver or Uber needs to take more from the driver. My guess, Uber will take more from the driver.
 

westsidebum

Well-Known Member
Uber has been hiding behind lie that it is a technology company. The corporate structure of Uber with several shell companies is anything but a technology company. This could force uber to become what it claims it really is because its business model is based on using drivers while forcing them to act as employees without the benefits of employees which undercuts the regulated limo industry.
 

jester121

Well-Known Member
But if uber loses the ability to use independent contractors in a market, they will have to massively crank up prices or leave. That's all there is to it.


Employees are entitled by law to make min wage free and clear of all deductions.

In Orlando that would require making $8.05 per hour plus 53c per EVERY mile.

And On-call time would have to be paid as well, as the time between fares is completely impossible to guess, drivers fall under the catagory of being "engaged to wait" meaning that they can be called up at any minute, not having a set time to wait until.

Sure.... Soon, Uber now tells employees the exact shift they'll be working each day, number of hours, and where they will report to work for rides. You will accept any and all rides they send you, and when finished, drive where they tell you to wait. Sorry, you only get 20 hours this week, at base pay rate. No more Boost or Surge, ever. You don't get to swipe on and off any time you feel like it any more...

How's that employee thing working out for drivers now?
 
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